A revolution??

[avicenna]

Inimbrium wrote:

Look at Freelancer, an average game, with an average plot, but it sold well because it was more 'playable' and more accessible.

Interesting point. I don't know sales figures but it is worthwhile noting that my local games shops do not stock Freelancer, but they continue to stock X2 which came out prior to Freelancer. I was advised by one of the staffers that there was a small but continuing demand for X2.

One local retail store that has Freelancer has had the same number of copies on the shelf for at least 18 months (at full retail price). I doubt whether they will ever sell them.

[SuperG]

My prediction is Games getting more complex in size and more feature are possible with the ever powerfulle becoming hardware.
But complexity and time to do it stands in the way.


The class AAA titles like Doom Quake are in small feature set but uber polisheshed and Q& A 'when its done' FPS games. No hard deadlines enforced by there publishers
HL2 to.

This means only this restricted but very well done FPS gameplay is done in 4 á 5 years ? They surtenly took the time to that litle featureset right.

And you would merge 2 or three genres to a hybrid? Like universal combat did. Wich means a FPS part a naval part a Space part. Would be cool.

X3 is done in one year witch explains the Q&A isues and missing promised features. And it pure a space game.

If you want FPS and Space roam in one hybride game keep in mind that the dev time to implement that right would be very short because every genre part must be giving the time to evolve to there own genre specific gameplay on atleast the same level as a pure fps game. Like Good balanced and polished and enough Q&A.
Egosoft publisher don't like giving the time they more keep it short. So that 1 to 2,5 years must be split. But each genre set of features needs at least 2 years. So 5 years needed.

Wich means if you get 2,5 year's your fps part get a measily one year. And that to short to Design and implement polish and Q& A that part of the game to a great FPS experience.

X3 game series has a large focus on free roaming. So Plot is not the focus it's a feature wich is more secondairy.

To do it right it must be a design priority and off course the time and resources put in it. Games with a good plot are often pure plot games with enough dev time to get it right with the right resources.

So the had to make a choice with there ristricted dev time.

I hope they get for X4 enough time to take X series to the next level but be realistic what dev can do in a limited time.

About Game engines most game engines are focused on one type of genre. To use it for something else you must redesign the top layer witch brings the FPS features and the tools wich are often ment for FPS game art and logic this must be developt to suit your genre better.

It would be a extensivly total conversion of a FPS licenced game engine. This deep hackin in some else produkt would be just as hard to make your own game engine from scretch to meet your specification for you hybrid genre game.

To make a Space FPS game you often have te make a FPS / Flight/ Space game engine hybrid.
I wonder dit ever a space game used a FPS licenced game engine?
---------------


I wonder what the project time for universal combat was. It would be cool if some dev house made such feature beast right.
Devs call this Feature creep.

[Aiten]

Your rightabout the titles getting more complex. The only way to combat this, is for developers to buy modules. For example, Oblivion uses 'Pangrea Trees' or something.

Many games use the Havoc engine, but other things can be taken, for example water, wildlife AI, NPC AI, physics (Havoc), even textures could in theory be pushed from a third party. We are getting to the point where one company cannot create a game on their own, and need third party companies to keep games under a 5 year development schedule.

Anyway, give X4 the ability to be a person, intense AI which you can communicate with (like oblivion) and interiors for all ships and space stations ... I will be a happy man, even if I have to wait til 2010 (only 3 1/2 years away) ... oh and very customisable, so my offices can look how I want them to.


This leads onto a second thought, many years ago there was a very basic business game called start-up where you could create your own product, choose the parts, design, costs, selling price, and then market it and try to make a profit.
X4 should follow this, instead of just trading, let us design, build and market our own products in the universe ... and then let us see NPC's using them!

[Nyax]

While an FPS element would be neat, ican't see it ever happening.
1) Because of the massive increase in development time (you're now effectively developing two games)
2) for most people itwould be like station interiors in x2- cool the first few times, and nice to play with every once in a while, but most of the time you just want to skip past it and get on with things.

As i've said many times, i'd be perfectly happy with a privateer/ freelancer style station interface. One would be light years ahead of the boring system x 1-3 have forced on us so far, and still give the feeling of getting out of the cockpit but at a fraction of the development cost a true FPS interface.

For that matter i'd like one for inside the ship as well. It'd add STACKS tothe immersion

[apricotslice]

For that matter i'd like one for inside the ship as well. It'd add STACKS tothe immersion

Well I dont know about yours, but my Centour certainly has a luxury bedroom suite with en-suite bathroom and sitting room in it, and it would be nice to see it, and especially visit the bedroom for some shut-eye while the universe gets on with its thing without me for a while (without losing ranks).

[Aiten]

While an FPS element would be neat, ican't see it ever happening.
1) Because of the massive increase in development time (you're now effectively developing two games)
2) for most people itwould be like station interiors in x2- cool the first few times, and nice to play with every once in a while, but most of the time you just want to skip past it and get on with things.

In reply, I must say, if there are interiors, people management, bartering etc, you need not walk around the station or ship. Any good game offers an immersive way to do a task (the long way - ie walking to the trader) and a shortcut (clikc a button and instantly be there/do everything through menus).
You cant have one system, because as you rightly say, sometimes we wont have the time, or patience and other times we want to feel a part of the universe around us that menus can give us.

Secondly, its not really developing two games, since X3 took one year to develop, we shall call it an add on. Now if they spent 3 years (the minimum average), they could have added extra feature. Also reducing the time would be to add a new game engine eg Havoc for the internal bits and pieces. What would take the time would be modelling, adding features and bug fixing. Hence why most games have a 3 year development period (Oblivion has been in the making for 5 years), so they have time to create a product worth playing.

I think the idea of X3 taking a year is a joke, someone in charge should have thought about the implications of such a short time span. If there is going to be an X4 should be in development now for a 2010 release. If it is released any sooner, we know it is a half hearted effort to make X3.5.


(PS - Search for a Half Life 2 mod called Eternal Silence, freeware mod with multiplayer capital ships, dog fighting with small assault ships, ground fighting inside capital ships. If a small team of amateurs can attempt something like this, a big company like Egosoft can do similar for a single player game)

[dimothy10]

personally i would love to see pretty much all of the improvements here! but most of all i would love more detailed ship control. by this i mean being able to balance out energy usage for example divert power to the engines thus enabling them to have a speed increase at the cost of guns and shields but also perhaps adding to the wear and tear on the engine. if you kept running your engines out of normal parameters eventually they would break or need servicing more often. this nicely brings in the need to service and overhaul your ship, keep it running smoothly. this process could take a certain amount of time to perform thus causing you to have to change ships or take a courtesy ship . still the this is just one thing i have wanted since frontier

[sharp78]

would all these extra things (planet landing,station interiors etc) really add anything?

Fro example GTA: San Andreas. this has added loads of little extra things (from getting your hair cut to playing pool, and quite detailed NPC interaction).
While these features are nice novelties, most of them wear off and are pointless (unless you're into that kind of thing, but i suppose that's what games like the sims are for, not my cup of tea really)

However, i agree that the x-series is a little dry at times, but what things would actually improve it, rather that just adding superficial additions?
I don't really know.

well that's just what i think. obviously if people believe that these additions would imrpove the game for them, then that's fair enough.
But realistically, i think the actual implementation of these things wouldn't create these imagined hollywood style dramas that every one posts about.

wow that was long boring.....

jrs1

[Aiten]

Being a person, rather than a ship will do a lot more than add novelty. It would add interaction, and plethora of possibilities, for example transporting over to a ship your going to plunder.

Dont want a pirate lifestyle? Design a product and market it? Search ships (as in actually go inside and search) with your police liscense? Find illegal goods, then instead of destroying the ship, why not take those responsible to a prison colony (and have the same happen to you - with the possibility of escape or bribing way out) etc.

I dont think any of these are novelties, but serious additions that would compliment the game, and expand it beyound a trading sim.

[rustamk]

I think this game series has a lot of fundamental flaws that Freelancer doesn't have, yet it's a more advanced game than Freelancer.

One thing I would like to say is that I would absolutely hate this if this was MMORPG or whatever. Single player is the way to go for me. My game, my rules, my style etc etc.

Rustam

[Inimbrium]

You all have some very good ideas, I like it.

@sharp78
I guess it did add something since that game is now hugely popular and has sold millions. Saying that, I don't want the X universe games to turn into something like San Andreas, but I do think it should expand and prepare itself for eventually becoming an MMORPG which what X2 was going to be in the first place. Any oldies here rmember the X-Online stuff? Never happened, and it never will if the game doesn't change.

@rustamk
Freelancer was average and middleground with no integrigy. It was completly designed to sell, unlike the X games which are designed by someone who had a dream. And I think that is why we all play it so much, because it's great, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't be better.

@dimothy10
Yes! More detailed ship control would be so cool. Even the now archaic X-Wing game had that. Want more speed? Redirect power from lasers and or shields! I can't imagine it being that difficult to implement. Flick a switch, your shields go down 10%, your lasers recharge 10% less quickly, but your ship now goes at 120% of it's max speed! Obviously make it a bit more complicated than that, and it would still be easy to implement.

About the whole FPS thing:
I don't think having an FPS is necesary. I think that a 3rd person implementation would be better, and easier to do, since Egosoft have already done it, sort of. I don't think that it's big leap from the 3rd person cutscenes to controlling a 3rd person character.

Most of the changes I sugested, and some of everybody else's sugestions are all quite minor in development time I think. It's all about attention to detail. Once 3rd person is done, one can then walk on a station/planet inside ship, etc. It all comes together at the point.

I don't know how complicated it will be implement the whole planet thing. If Wing Commander and Elite did it, then hopefully it can be easily done here. Even if it's not that easy to do, it's such a big step that it just has to be done. It will really make this game.

[rustamk]

OK, I will say what is wrong with X3 that is excellent in freelancer... Sorry it's long... but if it's any consolation, it took me 3 times longer to write then you to read it.

1) Freelancer has the feeling of life. Infrequent Radio chatter, weapons that look excellent so when you fly past a firefight it's a cinematic experience, groups that have targets, people you can see in bars, planets etc, even if it's repetitive, it adds to the feeling of life that is absent from X games. Anonymous taxis wonder from station to station and that's it. To add to that, Freelancer is serious. With Bandannas and Bili lis and Bola Gis around the universe the game sometimes gets the feeling of it being a cartoon.

2) Feeling of Space - X games don't have the feeling of space. In Freelancer (FL) there are crowded systems, but there are also systems where there is hardly a soul. Yes, X systems are much bigger, and there are more of them, but everywhere you go there is a 100 equipment carriers or whatever around you. It's not space, it's like one huge shopping mall. There are numerous phenomena that add to the challenge. Those gas clouds in FL with the lightining inside so that every once in a while the darkness in the cloud lights up everything and you can see damaged gear, asteroids, a station or two for a second, and not a ship around you, it's very good. You get a feeling that some systems are different from the others. Kusari systems do have that oriental feel to them while liberty has the "macho superpower" feel to it, while the Omega-41 system has a desolate place which no-one would want to be in ruled by pirates - feel. In X3 every system is fundamentally the same, save for differences in ships.

3) The feeling of adventure. In FL, how many times have you been trying to make it from the Jumgate to (I think freeport 5) just hoping that that Corsair squadron doesn't take notice of you? Or dropping Counter Measures while trying to activate the cruise engines while under attack in a freighter? Going through a minefield with Red Hessians chasing after you? The world of FL has the feeling of adventure. You think about whether to take the Red Route or the Calm Route. There is always the chance that you'll be fried in your ship, even in the toughest ones. X games don't have that. Going though a pirate sector? Ha! It's like all the others with stations and traders, albeit a bit less. Wanna take the red route? No problem, an M3 with PSGs will save you even if the whole universe turns against you. Attack a trader? Why not, it has no escort and the police in their M4s and M3s are no match for your M5 and won't see it happen from 10km away. There are no conflicts happening (nothing major). How cool would be a system with about 10 capital ships stationed on either ends from 2 opposing races firing at almost anything that gets inbetween, and sometimes each other? So you would have to do some serious flying and maybe try to go through an asteroid belt in order to evade their bullets. Or coming through a gate when a swarm of pirates rushas at you for your cargo. These things never happen in X games. All the systems are the same, predictable, no adventure, no excitement. The weapons are unspectacular (although they did get a "fair" facelift in X3), there is no shield effect (i.e. like in nexus for example when you hit shields they glow for a while) and the ships are too unbalanced.

4) To top it off some bits are missing that were in before but are not there now. Yeah, maybe cockpits, but I thought more about M2 docking and such. How could they have taken that out?

5) Seta and Jumprdive. Seta is maybe acceptable - Jumprdirve? No. Not to me. As I said, this game should have the feeling of space, and the Jumpdrive eliminates that feeling by making you go from one end to the other, and eliminating the need to go through dangerous sectors, the Jumprdive erases a huge chunk of the game. You can get away from a fight in your Jumpdrive! Anyone who says "Don't use it then" will be making a stupid reply. As we discussed before, things like a 2 minute delay, sending to wrong sectors from time to time and such would enhance the experience greatly.

If you read it this far you have my respect for your patience.

Rustam

[Constipated_Vigilante]

Yep, I really enjoyed the different station interiors in Freelancer. One of the really cool things about it; you felt like an adventurer, not some loner who stays in a ship his whole life. Even just the static interiors like in freelancer with menus and no walking would be good.

[rustamk]

I hope that's not sarcasm lol.

The station interiors in X2 were pretty much the same too btw. And now there isn't any at all!

Rustam

[Inimbrium]

I agree with both of you.

I'ts been a long time since I've played Freelancer, and you're right, it does have a feeling of adventure. And the systems were cool too, like you say. Like the nebula ones, where you couldn't see the stars, or even more than 50 feet in front of you. It was very good at atmosphere, albeit not very good at the storyline. One thing that gets me about X3 is that if you're in a nebula, like atreus clouds, you cant see the stations or asteroids because of the clouds, but you can see the stars which are much farther away? Doesn't make sense...


Egosoft should learn from Freelancer. There are some very good things there that could be used in a future X game. As you say, even a static picture of a station's concourse beats that silly menu system. If some like the menu, then keep it also. Have both.

When I've played any of the X games I've always had the feeling that Egosoft doesn't have any common sense. It's silly. They need to employ a person with common sense who can spot these silly mistakes early in the development, and get rid of them.

[apricotslice]

Re jumpdrives, the universe is so dangerous now that not having a jump drive is like saying I dont care if all my ships gets trashed. The jumpdrive is the only way of saving your ships when they under attack. If the ships could adequately defend themselves, then I might agree about the jumpdrive. But once you are far enough into the game to have assests all over the universe, the jumpdrive is essential to manageing them.

Re Freelancer, I scrapped it long before I got any feel for it. If it had what is being said, I never noticed because I scrapped it because it had no jopystick support and the mouse interface was anti-joystick and absolutely hopeless for a long-term joystick user.